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Guantanamo Bay Closeure Plans
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ZombieEighty-Oh
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Joined: 10 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedd the Jedi wrote:
I think Guantanamo Bay signified the heartlessness and paranoia of the Bush era. It's really not wise to send someone to a torture camp based on assumptions, and it's not like torture camps should still exist anyway. Interesting films to watch regarding the subject include the documentary Road to Gunatanamo and Rendition.


If I could ask one question, surely the people we are fighting have no interest in discussing what they are fighting about. In my opinion words won't shake them... They would sooner torture one of our soldiers(were they tough enough to capture one, which they aren't) than we would them. All we want is information. Anyone with a weapon is a threat, even a woman or a child!

However, as someone else, I believe, mentioned, I think civilians who threw down their weapons at first sight of U.S. troops wouldn't be held in custody. We aren't just picking up everyone we come across and stuffing them in Guantanamo.
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Masta Lego



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er, do you watch the news? They do, unfortunately, routinely capture civilians, contractors, reporters, and, unfortunately, coalition soldiers and make outrageous (and impossible) demands. They leak the videos of the executions when the government fails to comply, too.
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ZombieEighty-Oh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Masta Lego wrote:
Er, do you watch the news? They do, unfortunately, routinely capture civilians, contractors, reporters, and, unfortunately, coalition soldiers and make outrageous (and impossible) demands. They leak the videos of the executions when the government fails to comply, too.


Yes, of course I watch the news. If I didn't I'd consider myself uninformed.(well, even if I did I'd consider myself uninformed; Rush Limbaugh makes up for everything)

I know that THEY capture civilians. They do indeed use human shields quite often; it's that form of warfare that they are accustomed to.
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SW Fan Goosi



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedd the Jedi wrote:
I think Guantanamo Bay signified the heartlessness and paranoia of the Bush era.

That's true, of course, but there are other things that have symbolized the Bush era, such as the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, the economic crisis, etc.

Jedd the Jedi wrote:
It's really not wise to send someone to a torture camp based on assumptions, and it's not like torture camps should still exist anyway.

Is it wise to hit someone for throwing a wrapper on the floor, Jedd? Well, maybe that's why Singapore is such a "draconian utopia."
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ZombieEighty-Oh
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be great for torture camps to not exist, but it would also be great for war to not exist, and for the entire population of the world to be hard working and patient, and for Communism to be destroyed once and for all.

But none of that is going to happen until we have the time to focus on it.

Right now we're focusing on a war, and in a war we have to focus on the enemy. We can't just stop torturing the enemy and expect them to stop as well. If we stop torturing the enemy they will just try the harder. They're not the kind of enemy who will be patient and understanding with us. If we were fighting Britain or someone with a full fledged military, at least we'd be able to agree to truces here and there, but in this case, the enemy will stop at nothing to wipe us out.

Just like pulling out of Afghanistan. That will only embolden the enemy.

If you want to close all torture camps, what good will come from closing onlyyours?
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Zombie147
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well lets see, inhumane treatment in at least one part of the world will end, I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. It shows we are not like our enemy. Should we kill innocent civilians just because our enemy does? I don't think so. So should we continue torture because our enemy does? I think not.
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Jedd the Zombie
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SW Fan Goosi wrote:
Jedd the Jedi wrote:
I think Guantanamo Bay signified the heartlessness and paranoia of the Bush era.

That's true, of course, but there are other things that have symbolized the Bush era, such as the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, the economic crisis, etc.

Jedd the Jedi wrote:
It's really not wise to send someone to a torture camp based on assumptions, and it's not like torture camps should still exist anyway.

Is it wise to hit someone for throwing a wrapper on the floor, Jedd? Well, maybe that's why Singapore is such a "draconian utopia."


Let's try not to drag intercontinental politics into this. Well, nobody at all has been caned for littering. The very most is a fine or corrective work order (that is you sweep up the parks for a week to teach you a lesson) which I think is perfectly fair. Singapore saves caning for offences such as drug or weapons possesion/distribution, murder and other capital crimes.
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Padawan716
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetman147 wrote:
Well lets see, inhumane treatment in at least one part of the world will end, I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. It shows we are not like our enemy. Should we kill innocent civilians just because our enemy does? I don't think so. So should we continue torture because our enemy does? I think not.


Exactly.

Not only that, but it helps put us on the "right" side of the conflict. It makes us the "good guys."
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Zombie Austin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note: I'm watching this very carefully. It's managed to be relatively civil thus far; let's keep it that way.
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SW Fan Goosi



Joined: 12 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jedd the Jedi wrote:
SW Fan Goosi wrote:
Jedd the Jedi wrote:
I think Guantanamo Bay signified the heartlessness and paranoia of the Bush era.

That's true, of course, but there are other things that have symbolized the Bush era, such as the Iraq War, the war in Afghanistan, the economic crisis, etc.

Jedd the Jedi wrote:
It's really not wise to send someone to a torture camp based on assumptions, and it's not like torture camps should still exist anyway.

Is it wise to hit someone for throwing a wrapper on the floor, Jedd? Well, maybe that's why Singapore is such a "draconian utopia."


Let's try not to drag intercontinental politics into this. Well, nobody at all has been caned for littering. The very most is a fine or corrective work order (that is you sweep up the parks for a week to teach you a lesson) which I think is perfectly fair. Singapore saves caning for offences such as drug or weapons possesion/distribution, murder and other capital crimes.


Of course. You couldn't have a politically correct country if policemen caned people for tiny offenses. That's just corruption. I've been to the country before, and I know that you are otherwise fined for minor crimes like littering (although I did not on my stay there).
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SW Fan Goosi



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Padawan716 wrote:
Jetman147 wrote:
Well lets see, inhumane treatment in at least one part of the world will end, I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. It shows we are not like our enemy. Should we kill innocent civilians just because our enemy does? I don't think so. So should we continue torture because our enemy does? I think not.


Exactly.

Not only that, but it helps put us on the "right" side of the conflict. It makes us the "good guys."


Wouldn't it be better if the world was about good and bad? Well, we're not Bush. The problem is, although Guantanamo Bay has to be closed, I mean, what do you do with all the prisoners? If they are released, they're inevitably going to hate Americans. Maybe if there hadn't been a fishy recount in Florida, people wouldn't be losing jobs, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Iare Zombite
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CommandoEighty-Oh wrote:
It would be great for torture camps to not exist, but it would also be great for war to not exist, and for the entire population of the world to be hard working and patient, and for Communism to be destroyed once and for all.

But none of that is going to happen until we have the time to focus on it.

Right now we're focusing on a war, and in a war we have to focus on the enemy. We can't just stop torturing the enemy and expect them to stop as well. If we stop torturing the enemy they will just try the harder. They're not the kind of enemy who will be patient and understanding with us. If we were fighting Britain or someone with a full fledged military, at least we'd be able to agree to truces here and there, but in this case, the enemy will stop at nothing to wipe us out.

Just like pulling out of Afghanistan. That will only embolden the enemy.

If you want to close all torture camps, what good will come from closing onlyyours?


So it's fine because they are doing it? Sorry but I don't buy it.

If your reasoning is acceptable, criminials would use the same reasoning and say "But there are other criminials, if I stop they will not stop. Why should I stop?"
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ZombieEighty-Oh
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Austin: Yessir!

@ Iare: I'm sure you'll agree that the less crime there is in any one country, the better off that country is.

With torture, however, if one country stops torture, the opposing countries will benefit, and the countries allied to the torture-halting country will lose out.

Quite simply, if we stop torturing and they don't, THEY will have MORE troops while WE will have LESS. That's my point. Smile
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Iare Zombite
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm... speechless.

Okay I'm not so speechless apparently...

In reality torture doesn't really help at all. People will say anything to stop the pain. I do mean anything at all...
One
two
There's many more, but those two is sufficient to start reading up on.

Second link also states that it encourages enemy country to do same, so it actually encourages more, and not less, torture.

How does torture increase number of troops for the country?
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Padawan716
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CommandoEighty-Oh wrote:
Quite simply, if we stop torturing and they don't, THEY will have MORE troops while WE will have LESS. That's my point. Smile


No. If we divert the resources we're using for a useless system to something more efficient and effective, we'd be better off. If we didn't have G-mo, it would be a burden off our shoulders.

Bush's mistakes are not going to go away easily. Solving this problem isn't going to be easy, but it should involve reviewing the reasons for each prisoner's detention, and based on that, transferral to mainland prisons with POW treatment or deportation, back to their country of origin.

If the government can't provide any proof of a prisoner's service to the enemy, then they should be released. While it would be amazing if we could prevent them from joining the antagonists, it would probably be too expensive and exhausting. This is Bush's legacy, and it's going to be a gamble, just like his other actions.
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Zombifox
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CommandoEighty-Oh wrote:
@ Austin: Yessir!

With torture, however, if one country stops torture, the opposing countries will benefit, and the countries allied to the torture-halting country will lose out.

Quite simply, if we stop torturing and they don't, THEY will have MORE troops while WE will have LESS. That's my point. Smile


Im sorry, but did you just say america, the leader of the free world, should torture civilians and military personel so it can get one up on the third world countries that you currently have operations in?

The whole war was, i wouldnt say one big mistake, but millions of small mistakes that was detrimental for all countries involved.
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