FBTBForums.net Forum Index FBTBForums.net

...has been nuked!

 
 ChatChat    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Constructive Criticism, Building, and You
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FBTBForums.net Forum Index -> Star Wars MOCs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:03 am    Post subject: Constructive Criticism, Building, and You Reply with quote

Constructive Criticism, Building, and You

Okay, just a bit of a disclaimer and a warning. This whole thing is a half-rant/half-suggestion based on some observations in this forum and the LEGO forum. It's not directed any anyone in particular or any groups. It's not a call-out or anything like that. Really, it's just a move to try and improve what could very well be the most important part of our forums. And sadly, right now, it's probably the most underused.

I've written about this before, in my How to Write Posts and Influence People thing, but it could use a bit of elaboration. Maybe it could help.

First, let's talk about what the best thing is about LEGO: you can build anything you want. That's what makes it such a wonderful hobby and toy. It's pretty much the only response that needs to be written for every "I Wish LEGO would make such-and-such" thread. Have bricks, can build. Sure, we all have varying degrees of building skill and brick selection, but if you can wish to buy a new set, you can wish to buy some bricks off Bricklink. Probably cheaper that way too. Wink

The reality of the Internet is that you're putting yourself out there with every post. If you're a passive member, you're only here to read, you're not posting anyway, so it's a non-issue. But when you do post something, be it a creation or an opinion, you should expect to be held up for criticism. Such a cycle is necessary for a healthy community to continue and grow. It makes everyone better by continually pushing for a newer and higher standard.

In the scope of LEGO, it makes us better builders. Sure, it's nice to hear comments like "wow, that's great" or "I love it," those don't improve my skills. Fifteen responses that are one line long do not help improve my model, or bring up a technique that I'd never thought of. Honestly, that's the kind of responses I could do without. Yes, I appreciate a few of them, but I'd much rather have one response of "you should try out this block here, and add a bit of shape to this. Maybe something like this..." than 100 telling me I built the best thing since the Slave Leia Dancing Band.

This isn't to say that I'm advocating free reign in talking about how terrible something looks. It's about the art of "constructive criticism." This means adding to the discussion along with advice or a solution, not just tearing apart (or complimenting) something.

That's the whole purpose of a MOC forum, to get feedback. If you want to just post pictures of your build, try out Flickr or Brickshelf. People can look, oooh, and ah all they want. This isn't the place to come and get that.

The cornerstone of constructive criticism is that you critique the subject, but also give advice on ways to improve it. Members who provide feedback like this are not elitist, they're trying to help you become a better builder. And it can vary from person to person.

On the same note as comments like "I love it" or Shocked, things like "I don't like it" or "it doesn't look right," without any additional information, is equally worthless to a builder. These start to bridge on destructive criticism, and that's not what we're about. Save things like that for the work of Michael Crichton. If you don't have anything to add... then don't. Simple as that. Yes, it's nice to know people are looking, but ultimately, back-patting wastes time for everyone.

The moral of the story is that by posting in a MOC forum, you're expecting and accepting feedback and constructive criticism of your work. Don't get worked up if someone isn't wowed by your model... it happens to all of us, and there's always room to improve a build.
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein


Last edited by dWhisper on Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JediTomM



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Location: The country where almost no conventions, celebrations or nothing, Australia.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice! Wink

nah but really, it would be frustrating with hearing stuff like

Random Person 1 wrote:
Nice! Very Happy


Random Person 2 wrote:
Thats cool!


Random Person 3 wrote:
Not the best Sad


Random Person 4 wrote:
ZOMG, THAT IS REALLY, REALLY COOL!


you have done an honour, in a way.
_________________
A million awful things are done to trees. But worst of all... Trees get chained to hippies, Trees get chained to hippies. (song)

Trees by Tripod


Last edited by JediTomM on Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, it's been a long time since I've seen a ZOMG. How many people even know what the Z stands for anymore?

But yeah, that's the purpose. I've actually had this one languishing around, waiting to be posted, for some time. I just felt we've had a surge in building lately, and saw Don's post in Jude's thread, and felt we could use it. The only way we can sustain activity in our building forums is to keep constructive criticism. Like you've I've had posts like that dominate a few threads, and I've just given up posting a lot of stuff. It's kind of sad when I get better feedback on Flickr than I do on a LEGO forum...
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JediTomM



Joined: 04 Feb 2008
Location: The country where almost no conventions, celebrations or nothing, Australia.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slang Online Dictionary wrote:
A more enthusiastic (if not sarcastic) way of saying OMG. The Z doesn't stand for anything, but rather is added onto the O, thus making it pronounced "ZOH MY GOD!!1"


I never did know, just so many people use it!
_________________
A million awful things are done to trees. But worst of all... Trees get chained to hippies, Trees get chained to hippies. (song)

Trees by Tripod
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Said dictionary is wrong... Z stands for Zounds, which is a throwback to the old MUD/Zork days.

Sigh... I just dated myself, didn't I?
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
theZombieAbides
Undead!


Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Location: On the Outer Rim of the Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, let me say that I agree with everything in your post. That said, I think that, given the younger audience we have here, some people look at criticism in the wrong way. Some of those who post here seem to be looking more for validation that they "belong" than anything else. For them, its not so much, "Here's my MOC, tell me how I can improve it" so much as its, "Here's my MOC, tell me how awesome it is so that I can feel like I belong here." It's these same people who get upset about criticism, because they think they are being rejected. In there mind, it goes something like, "They told me my MOC sucked, that means I don't really belong there anymore." Its really quite silly and juvenile, but then again, weren't we all when we were that age? As you said, short comments like "It's great" or "What a piece of junk" don't really help anything, and only serve to reinforce this validation/rejection model. Why not give them useful advice instead? Hopefully, they'll become a better builder, and you may even learn something yourself.

So ask yourself the next time you're thinking of posting a MOC, "Do I want to become a better builder, or do I just want my ego stroked?"
_________________
With common principles to the next level - Brrraaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnss........
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And let me say... if you just want your ego stoked, you shouldn't be posting stuff here.
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ZombieSolo
... eats you all. [zMOD]


Joined: 05 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dWhisper wrote:
Said dictionary is wrong... Z stands for Zounds, which is a throwback to the old MUD/Zork days.

Sigh... I just dated myself, didn't I?
I fail to see the meaning of it... Question
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
theZombieAbides
Undead!


Joined: 15 Oct 2007
Location: On the Outer Rim of the Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot to mention: It is very plain to see that Z stands for "Zizzer Zazzer Zuzz."
_________________
With common principles to the next level - Brrraaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnss........
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rogue13



Joined: 09 Oct 2005
Location: Coming soon in an X-Wing near you...

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this thread Sticky'd or Announcement'd yet? It should be.

Anyway, I fully agree with your sentiments dW (Assuming you have sentiments Wink ). Such posts serve no purpose whatsoever, except the acception/rejection thing Jude was talking about.

Oh, and the "Z" stands for... well..... "Zoinks". Like in Scooby Doo. That was a good show. Haven't seen it in years though.....

-R13
_________________
"The Bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding Bureaucracy."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Battle Zombie Alita
Undead!


Joined: 06 May 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone must be hanging out at CSF too much.
MocPages is the land for Ego-Stroking. Lego.com is the land of pre-teens.
We have a problem that accomplished builders don't fish for comments here. Up-and-coming builders get feedback in other forums. New builders don't get comments if the MOC is not very worthwhile.
I'll be glad when GL's series starts. We may get lots of great new MOCs.

dWhisper: Ha ha! You need to stay in and build more.

Less Typeing, More Building.
(My submarine OGRE has been flailing)
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, my biggest limiters to building is a lack of time and space more than anything. We're trying to plan a move to Kansas City, but that hinges on getting a new job, and that requires interviewing, which takes time...

And to boot, we've more than outgrown our current place. Sadly, in said preparations, all of my LEGO sets are packed up. I have all my parts out still, but it's tough to build with everything else.

So, all I have time to do is sit around and comment on other people's builds! I think FBTB has some great builders and comments, it's just so much fluff drowns it all out. And MocPages has always provided nothing but annoyance for me when I've gone there. It seems busted on a very fundamental level, and I can't quite figure out why...
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zombsta' Bo
Undead!


Joined: 07 Nov 2007
Location: u cant fool mee

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everytime I type in the MOC's section I've tried to tell someone specifically what I like, or what I believe they should do, because when I joined, I learned (after some time) that builders and MODs do not like small comments, that end up taking space. It's annoying, as a builder and reader, to see stupid comments (not singling out anyone, I used to, and still do sometimes), unless a build is just perfect/spectacular/loss of words. A lot of new members do this.

There are a handful of newbies who get the picture right away, and are pleasant additions to our forums (you know who you are...), but some just don't seem to understand likes and dislikes of the community, as well as the rules. But we'll see if they learn. Hopefully the MOCs section will be a place of true LEGO fans and builders.

Thanks for the "pointers" dW.
_________________
zombie.Brickzhelf (Update Coming [Not]Soon)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ZombieSolo
... eats you all. [zMOD]


Joined: 05 Feb 2005

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battle Angel Alita wrote:
Someone must be hanging out at CSF too much.
...
Less Typeing, More Building.
So... are you the pot here, or the kettle?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
strwrs429



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couple of things I want to touch on. First, if your going to post about a MOC make sure it's about the MOC not little side conversations and rants. Second, please add some meat to your comments. Getting comments like "Cool" is awesome but boring.

-Strwrs429
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zombie Fett
Destroyed!


Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Location: Connection Failed. Please Try Again... Brains.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job dW. Now I should go glare at the people who just left one sentence on my LA-AD moc page... Laughing .

But seriously, People with small vocabulary's are annoying to talk to. Heck they don't even have vocabulary in their vocabulary! I think if people read more books it would help. Reading teaches you things about words, grammar, life, people and the like. But alas! Not enough people read anymore. Books I say!

*goes into corner to read eye of the world*
_________________
Oh, signatures are so over rated. =D
Me is dead.
Me has Flickr, does you?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Brick Fett



Joined: 17 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicely posted, sir.

I agree with all that you’ve said. And I know that I’m guilty of the “Good job, I really like it” comments that you pointed out, but I do try and add some constructive criticism when I’m able. I enjoy a lot of the MOCs that have been posted since I’ve been back and I feel compelled to encourage those builders that impress me so that they’ll post more of their wonderful work.

I’ve just recently returned to these forums after being absent for bout 2 years and the whole time my LEGOs have been in storage and my mind has been on my Art and trying to make a living at it. I hope you all can be patient with me and my “Good job” posts until I get back in the swing and am able to give better advise to other builders and hopefully dust off my own LEGOs and get some MOCs of my own posted for yall.
Idea
_________________
Brick Fett

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lego Apple



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: Behind the Mayonaise, to the left of the coleslaw, right of the potato salad

PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well put, Dw.
I can pretty much agree on everything you said, and can also relate to it, for I am fairly guilty of doing this. However, like BrickFett, I try and add any tips I can when I can. Though I know that is not an excuse, and will try to cut back considerably on the "Great Jobs" and the "Impressive" unless they are truly needed. I also am one of those one-sentenceians and write some very tiny feedbacks which I will cut back on as well. In all, I have learned to write more constructive posts in the future.

Lego "Granny Smith" Apple
_________________
Don nuked us all. Now what? Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Star_wars_rules



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne Australia

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dw nice work here. I was pondering on this myself and couldn't put into words like you have without upsetting people.

In regards to constructive criticism and such, if someone put up a couple of pics of a work in progress and was stuck for pieces or ideas and the comments that followed went something like this........

"Hey I like what you have so far, however a bit of advice, try using a studless such and such piece to replace that top thing over the hatch" blah blah blah etc.

Or "I like the style/tone you are trying for, but the colors clash way too much. Perhaps gettting rid of some of the color would maybe make it better. A good tone for color could be black and yellow. If of course you have a shorted of said colors then fair enough as we have all been in that boat before" blah blah etc.

Then there is this one, which I think some of us have been hit by before.

"Crap absolute crap the concept is good but what you have done with over greebling, or random placements of parts is all wrong. It looks very "busy" and "disorganised". Perhaps try slimming it down and only focus on the areas one at a time. Then when you have gotten your basic body in place start adding layers for extra detail. With greebling make sure you don't over do it. If you are going to use greebles mainly do it around the engines and portions of the sides to make it look as if the fuel lines are actually coming from the body and going back to the engines. With the laser cannons, we don't need to see the hoses around the back of them as the lasers are cooled from the heat sinks and also by moving through the air. So the hoses are just an overkill" blah blah blah etc.

.....then it would come down to how the person takes the criticism. The initial response to "Crap absolute crap...would make most people cringe, but if they read on and not focus on the opening comment they may actually see what that person is saying.

I don't condone those sort of comments, however if that person then comes back after the mod's have been made etc and says something like "I like the improvements, it's good to see you took the advise, if I seemed harsh then sorry, I was simply stating what I thought was wrong with it."

Like any forum you need to be open to some critique otherwise you as a building will never try anything new and get stuck in a rut and not move onto new pieces or techniques. S@*t I would never in my life think to use technique pieces for a frame to build on until I built the ISD. In fact in my review I praised lego for this idea.
_________________
Please refer to me as SWR.

The force is strong with this one......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Larry Lars



Joined: 09 May 2006
Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with what dW says about constructive criticism, but I think there is a couple of things to point out about the discussions in these forums.

If the "Constructive or not post at all"-rule of thumb leads to nearly no posts on a decent or good MOC, I´d say I rather have a few "I like it. Its pretty good" in between the constructive ones.

I think you've noticed that a MOC thread rarely find new life if it get stuck just a little bit down on the first page of the MOC section. The constructive criticism needed to perfect my MOC would not turn up at all if the thread quickly fell asleap. And sometimes the skilled veterans really need to see a couple of "Nice work" and "Awsome!" to wake up and tell what's lacking.

For me the most important thing is to keep the topic alive so that the most valid points turns up eventually.
I think that threads were the MOC still could use some perfection, maybe with help from others, to often are regarded as yesterdays news by the other members.

So I say; If we help each other to keep the topics alive the constructive criticism will be in there somewhere.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Duckman



Joined: 08 Nov 2006

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree totally with Larry Lars on this one. To say that receiving feedback of 'nice work, I think its awesome' is not unwarranted.

Do we all remember the work of some of the spectacular MOCS we have seen from Gareth and the Clone Wars very large MOCS. What else can you honestly say other than.... spectacular!!! or awesome!!!

Would you say to these veterans.... you could have done better with ... uhh... more greebling, or whatever. I just feel that sure, I do understand what dwhisper is saying, but reduction of compliments because its simply a compliment would lead to a reduction in the number of new MOC posts, for the simple reason that... really and essentially, if you are human, and you have posted a fantastic MOC, it is human nature to feel thankful for recieving complimentary feedback for your efforts.

Constructive feedback is great, but not without the additional compliments whether adding constructive or just emotional 'pats on the back', its all constructive when looking at the bigger picture. For instance, everyone is different, and by this, some people will make more models, (especially those who know they have made great models), are often the ones who will make more exceptional models after receiving great praise from others. Can you imagine an awesome model being posted, and then .... because its so good, no-one posts any feedback because its not 'constructive', only saying how awesome it is, whereby in fact it is awesome, and essentially doesn't need any modifying. But then again, as I said, everyones interpretation of feedback is different, so by definition its best to leave all avenues of feedback open for the designer to take in all democratic views whether helpful or not from the viewpoint of the designer. But, its all relative, so in having said that, perhaps the best viewpoint is simply uncensored unpressured responses from all members.

However as I do understand what dwhisper is saying, to read between the lines, if someone posts a.... not really up to scratch .... standard of model, then simply saying 'its great', is not really helping, because you are just coaxing someone who is not essentially making anything that is that great to make further models of 'low quality' interpretations then its not really being honest to the builder. I guess at the end of the day, its best to be just honest, and perhaps not to mislead a builder into thinking they have built something 'great' or 'awesome' when in fact its probably a cover for saying 'thats kind of not that great, but keep trying' without really saying anything that would really help the builder to understand what it is they need to improve. Postitive banter, really, is more destructive than harsh realism, is what dwhisper is saying.

But this is just our viewpoint and of course, also subject to interpretation, like everything in the lego universe
Very Happy
_________________
Lego Custom Models 4 Sale...

Fully Brick Models Ebay

Fully Brick Models Bricklink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
roguebantha



Joined: 05 Feb 2005
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lots of good points raised, and constructive critisim is always welcome and preferable. But. Short post saying they like something still does two useful things;
1, if you get two comments on one MOC and 11 on another the simple numbers show you which work people like, is probable built the best and therefore shows you a good direction for your next work and future style.
2, As Larry says, it keeps a thread alive for the constructive stuff.

If you haven't got something constructive to say it shouldn't stop you showing your approval, maybe someone has already pointed out something you would have posted, and maybe you want to say you've been inspired to build something similar which has got to be one of the things we're all about.
_________________
My Brickshelf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, it's possible to still give constructive criticism and be positive by calling out individual things. This is the kind of thing that builders like Rocko and Nannan make important, because they're dripping with awesomeness the way that Kyle drips with fluids.

Case in point... contrast these two things...

" Shocked that's amazing!"

or...

" Shocked that's amazing! I love how the slopes stagger and move around the base of the ship, and how fluid the whole build looks."

Both are simple and short, but the second one shows an acknowledgment, something that really stuck out on the model. With the first... it's hard to tell if someone even looked at the ship in any great detail. There is always room to grow and develop as a builder, and always things that can be changed, even on a perfect model. Most anyone I know that's skilled in a creative art, be it painting, writing, singing, or building, is never happy. It's the mark of an artist, always wanting to improve on what you made.
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Zedsier
Undead!


Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Location: Slave I, California

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And together let us restore the Star Wars MOC's to its former glory. If ever.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Brick Fett



Joined: 17 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/agree 100% with adding what stood out for you to your complements.

I try to do that as much as I can.

If a moc isn't something I really like I usually don't reply unless I can offer advise for improvement.

I don’t think dWhisper is trying to draw a hard line in the sand and force people to not post unless they can help improve a moc. I think he just wants us all to at least take a look at what we post and try to improve our input a little more for the betterment of the whole FBTB community.

Over all I’ve found these forums to have some of the best builders I’ve ever seen and I know I enjoy seeing all the great creations that you guys put out. So I know it can be hard to not say “Great job” due to the amount of talent we see here with each creation but I for one will try harder to add a little more to my comments in the hopes of bringing more value to my replies and kudos.
_________________
Brick Fett

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
General Veers



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Location: Getting on board the next flight to FBTB II

PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At what point would it be considered acceptable to bump your MOC?
_________________
Raptor Fun Fact #73- The raptor's natural enemy is the gas-powered internal combustion off-road vehicle, which is made of evil.

So long everyone, my flight's leaving soon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Star_wars_rules



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne Australia

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a bit of reading over these last posts here, I came up with this thought.

There are ways to get your point across on a person's moc without being harsh or just plain rude. Personally I always try and say to someone "hey why not try changing the front of this into this instead? If it doesn't work you can always change it back." That way I leave it up to them to make the changes if they wish. Some people may like a design they have the way it is. Case in point is that new Darth vader's Sith apprentice ship from the EU that looks silly. Now that is not to say lego did a bad job, the ships design is just ugly anyway. I suppose though I would have to get it and build it first to really comment, but from the box it looks like crap.

Now if anyone in the world can take critique it's the guys over at the ranch at lego. The builders and designers.....hang on aren't they the same person??? Anyway they would cop all sorts of flak over the designs that they release to their focus groups. They would then take the negative feedback and try to change the design into something more accurate or at least similar to what they were trying to do.

Best example of this would have to be the a-wings, both old and new, no real design changes apart from the obvious. The x-wing underwent quite a few changes, but I still like the original one best. I know it is smaller than the new one, but it just has that look. The new y-wing is lightyears ahead of the old one, but the old one can easily be modded into the new one. The b-wing design changed a great deal with the newer one being much larger than it's older cousin. The falcon also underwent a major upgrade and looks much better even though the front mandibles are not to scale, the rest of it is spot on.

The ISD also is another set that some of us either hate or love. Personally I love the ISD, it's got the right size and apart from some minor flaws it's great the way it is. Can be modded to be more accurate, but it's great as a playset, similar to the falcon.

The only sets that I don't like are the ds2 and the at-at. I don't have either however if lego re-designs the at-at body into a playset that can detach from the legs and the head becoming a sentry gun then I may consider getting it.

I hope you can all see the pattern I am trying to achieve here. No I am not dissing lego, I am just saying that they take heaps of flak for their designs and are not phased by it. In fact they probably thrive on feedback so they can better their designs. The same goes for moc's here. Heck what is a lego design before it's released as an official set??.....A MOC!! They have the master builders who have tubs and tubs of pieces and build sets from that. They use the software, borrow from build techniques that have worked in the past and come up with what we get in the box.

I think that as dwhisper has said quite eliquently, if you don't have anything nice to say about someones moc/wip or whatever, then move on. If you do stop and decide to add some advice be mindful of what you may say as it may be taken the wrong way.
_________________
Please refer to me as SWR.

The force is strong with this one......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

General Veers wrote:
At what point would it be considered acceptable to bump your MOC?


Honestly, I hate bumping without adding anything to a post. There are a variety of reasons that you may not gain comments on your MOC, not limited to, but including:

1) There are a lot of builds going on, and we all have other pressures in our lives
2) Your MOC doesn't illicit a lot of positive comments
3) There's no reason to reply to the post, either because it's poorly crafted or devoid of content

Let me explain the last one, because I've touched on it before in other threads. Let me also be clear that I am not talking about anyone specific in this response (and not you GV). All of us have a predisposition to react to the quality of things that we read, view, and hear. Our brains are tuned in to quality, even when we may not be able to produce that same level. Basically, we know what is good and what isn't.

This is especially telling in how someone posts on a forum. Normally, communication is a split of verbal and non-verbal attributes. When you write, you're limited to your word selection alone. That's why some members (myself included) dislike things like chatspeak, bad grammar, and poor mechanics so much. When we see posts like that, we're far more likely to just turn around and leave than to answer. You could have just built the most amazing LEGO build ever, but the presentation is so bad we can't get past that.

Is that wrong? Maybe, but it's not our fault. Personally, I don't like having to do the work to decipher what someone is trying to tell me. I get that some members don't have English as a first language, and that's very cool. In all cases I can think of, the worst abusers of language are native-speakers.

The same goes with using pictures in a post. I like pages that provide me at least a hint of what I need to go look at. Embedding pictures isn't that hard, and there are tons of resources on the internet to help you resize and store them automatically (Flickr rules all). When I go into a post and just see a link... I have to open up a new window, find what's good, and sift through a build. If it's not plainly apparent on that link... I'll probably just leave.

The same goes for picture quality, incidentally. Blurry, grainy, or pictures without a good backdrop will get me out of there too. I know I'm equally guilty of taking things like that, but have tried to work on it as of late.

The last thing is to look at what you're creating. Sometimes, the subject will be very narrow. Things like Halo MOCs, anime ships, or eclectic builds won't attract as many comments as a good Star Wars ship or a nifty castle, just given the type of site we are and what our subject matter is.
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Battle Zombie Alita
Undead!


Joined: 06 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dWhisper wrote:
We're trying to plan a move to Kansas City, but that hinges on getting a new job, and that requires interviewing, which takes time...
Lord, he's hunting me down.
DonSolo wrote:
Battle Angel Alita wrote:
Less Typeing, More Building.
So... are you the pot here, or the kettle?

Sadly, my mocs aren't photogenic. But, I am building.

As for comments, aren't more mocs needed?
Clone Army Builders Guild has a surprising breadth of activity. I miss the old days when everyone built their own X-wing.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dWhisper
99% Evil ® [MOD]


Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Location: Arkansas!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hunting? Nah... my wife is from a couple hours south of there, and I went to college in Missouri. Drive through KC whenever we go visit her family!

Anyway... there's been a general progression in the MOC forums as of late, and we've seen more posts in the last few months than the six or so before it. This is an effort to increase that, and get more people posting. And building. I know I need to build more, and I'm sure a lot of people around here could say the same thing.
_________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe. - Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FBTBForums.net Forum Index -> Star Wars MOCs All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group