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How many starfighters does it take to invade a planet?
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Iare Zombite
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They can if they're moving fast enough ( but not in blue... ), but in speed shown in movie? Nah...
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Zedsier
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JPCJedi wrote:
Similarly, I have always viewed the physics of those asteroids as faulty, because in one scene two asteroids collide and burst into blue fire. 0_o How can two asteroids colliding vaporize each other?

I believe it was a TIE Fighter that was sandwiched between them so when they collided the TIE broke into blue fire. I believe it was in EV to show how Han and the Falcon had these mad juking skills.
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So I stand by my argument that turbolasers cannot logically equal nuclear firepower.

I agree, too. Firstly in the evidence vladsimpaler offers, the "conservative estimate" really has no concrete way of measurement. Nowhere in Star Wars is an exact voltage or power associated with a bolt of energy and thus this cannot be looked to. Furthermore, though lasers and turbolasers have a great amount of energy, not all of them can be compared on the same scale. The Death Star's turbolaser could take out a planet if given the appropriate time and preparations. However, just because Laser A is 1/10th of the size of the Death Star turbolaser, doesn't mean it will have 1/10th of the power of the Death Star turbolaser. So because there is no way to tell the extent of power, because of the lack of comparison, there is no way to make a conclusive statement about the exact power of any laser.
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Blacknight



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For planets that seem to have no way to grow their own food or other vital supplies and would have to rely on imports from other planets (Coruscant* cough cough, and probably many colony worlds), there's another simple way a Star Destroyer and its TIE squadrons could be used to take them over. They would only need to blockade the planet from space to prevent any food from getting in, and eventually starve the populating into submission.

*Regarding Coruscant, if the entire planet's surface is one big urban city, how the heck can it grow any food with no surface area available for plants to capture the sunlight? Furthermore, it wouldn't even be able to have a breathable atmosphere if there were no trees to absorb carbon and emit oxygen! I'm glad GL made Coruscant the way it was in the movies (I like to think of it as a warning of what our earth will look like one day if we keep destroying the environment), however ecologically there's no way it could actually be habitable.
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General Veers



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junsier wrote:
I agree, too. Firstly in the evidence vladsimpaler offers, the "conservative estimate" really has no concrete way of measurement. Nowhere in Star Wars is an exact voltage or power associated with a bolt of energy and thus this cannot be looked to. Furthermore, though lasers and turbolasers have a great amount of energy, not all of them can be compared on the same scale. The Death Star's turbolaser could take out a planet if given the appropriate time and preparations. However, just because Laser A is 1/10th of the size of the Death Star turbolaser, doesn't mean it will have 1/10th of the power of the Death Star turbolaser. So because there is no way to tell the extent of power, because of the lack of comparison, there is no way to make a conclusive statement about the exact power of any laser.


You also have to take into evidence the chance of the turbolaser hitting something explosive, like say the Bargain Blaster Warehouse, or that conveniently placed Power Plant. and you can't forget collateral damage, like a building's structural integrity failing, and it falling on it's neighbors.
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Gaia



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blacknight wrote:
For planets that seem to have no way to grow their own food or other vital supplies and would have to rely on imports from other planets (Coruscant* cough cough, and probably many colony worlds), there's another simple way a Star Destroyer and its TIE squadrons could be used to take them over. They would only need to blockade the planet from space to prevent any food from getting in, and eventually starve the populating into submission.

A single star destroyer and its TIE squadrons can't blockade a planet. No more than a hundred of US rangers can blockade the Mexican border.

The space around a whole planet is gigantic and even if the destroyer scan for incomers, it and its TIE have a very minor probability to get near enough to block it. It's like if you tried to prevent someone to cross a football terrain in its width, knowing at the last time when the incomer would appear and where he would enter.

Remember Naboo blockade: it takes dozens of Trade Federation battleships to surround all the planet.

Once the invasion accomplished, the blockade is replaced by an occupation performed from the ground surface (itself providing an ineffective blockade since the Naboo royal cruiser can easily come back and land in the Gungan swamp, but the Nemoidians could believe a blockade was useless while they controlled the major Naboo cities and, thought they, threatenous populations).
Blacknight wrote:
*Regarding Coruscant, if the entire planet's surface is one big urban city, how the heck can it grow any food with no surface area available for plants to capture the sunlight?

Like New York city: importations.
Blacknight wrote:
Furthermore, it wouldn't even be able to have a breathable atmosphere if there were no trees to absorb carbon and emit oxygen!

Anyway, most of our Earth atmosphere dioxygen is produced by microorganisms, not by plants.

(Same for N2 and CO2: our atmosphere composition reveals how much living organisms release N2, O2 and CO2, except for CO2 released by human industry and volcanoes or absorbed by Earth crust formation but the two last are equilibrated since millions of years.)

Coruscant just has to produce and absorb the right amount of atmospheric gas.
Blacknight wrote:
I'm glad GL made Coruscant the way it was in the movies (I like to think of it as a warning of what our earth will look like one day if we keep destroying the environment), however ecologically there's no way it could actually be habitable.

You're right: we'd need other planets for food productions at least.
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Zedsier
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

General Veers wrote:
Junsier wrote:
I agree, too. Firstly in the evidence vladsimpaler offers, the "conservative estimate" really has no concrete way of measurement. Nowhere in Star Wars is an exact voltage or power associated with a bolt of energy and thus this cannot be looked to. Furthermore, though lasers and turbolasers have a great amount of energy, not all of them can be compared on the same scale. The Death Star's turbolaser could take out a planet if given the appropriate time and preparations. However, just because Laser A is 1/10th of the size of the Death Star turbolaser, doesn't mean it will have 1/10th of the power of the Death Star turbolaser. So because there is no way to tell the extent of power, because of the lack of comparison, there is no way to make a conclusive statement about the exact power of any laser.

You also have to take into evidence the chance of the turbolaser hitting something explosive, like say the Bargain Blaster Warehouse, or that conveniently placed Power Plant. and you can't forget collateral damage, like a building's structural integrity failing, and it falling on it's neighbors.

Yes, but I don't see how this would change anything. If a laser has a chance of hitting something and doing more damage, it doesn't change the laser's overall power. Use this: just because Luke's strategically placed proton torpedoes blew up the Death Star, doesn't mean they had the power to blow up the Death Star. They just happened to hit a certain area that could.
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Iare Zombite
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quite... Someone is now designing a farming building that can supply an entire city it's located in. It's not too hard to see that Coruscant, being a world-city, have many such buildings.

http://verticalfarm.com/designs.php
Check this out.
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vladsimpaler



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dWhisper wrote:
Perhaps, but still. Even having that power on one cannon is a bit extreme. The fact that it can blast an asteroid is rather iffy, since there would have never existed an area where asteroids were so densely packed. And if the shields were so strong, they should have rolled right off. After all, Turbolaser > Asteroid...

Shields are made to deflect lasers, not objects.

In any case, it's not necessarily the actual Star Destroyer that can invade a planet, but that fact that the repercussions would be incredibly severe if they did not bow to the Emperor.
As Grand Moff Tarkin said, "Fear will keep the local systems in line."
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Blacknight



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaia wrote:
The space around a whole planet is gigantic and even if the destroyer scan for incomers, it and its TIE have a very minor probability to get near enough to block it. It's like if you tried to prevent someone to cross a football terrain in its width, knowing at the last time when the incomer would appear and where he would enter.


You're right if it was a small planet with a population of only a few thousand or million people, it would be hard to stop every ship from slipping through. However, if you're talking about a planet like Coruscant, with a population of a trillion people apparently, they would need near daily shipments of food and natural resources in huge bulk freighters far larger than the Star Destroyer just to survive. Those freighters would be big and slow, and it would be easy to intercept enough of them to cause severe famines in short order for the people on the planet's surface depending on their arrival.

Gaia wrote:
Anyway, most of our Earth atmosphere dioxygen is produced by microorganisms, not by plants.


The ONLY way the earth is habitable is because of plants (including microbial plants like algae) that capture the sun's energy - without that energy, no life, microbial or otherwise, would be possible. We only have an atmosphere because all the life on planet earth (not just the microbes) works in symbiosis to create it - google Earth System Science or Gaia Theory. All of the land area of Coruscant is taken up by buildings which waste the sun's energy - not only would you have a massive urban heat island effect going on, there would be unchecked atmospheric warming that would make the surface unliveable. And with little to no ozone being made, the sun would fry everybody's skin off and evaporate any water.
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Blacknight



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iare Tosevite wrote:
Not quite... Someone is now designing a farming building that can supply an entire city it's located in. It's not too hard to see that Coruscant, being a world-city, have many such buildings.
http://verticalfarm.com/designs.php
Check this out.


Interesting, thanks for the link.

However, I never saw giant greenhouses in any of the various flybys of Coruscant (nor any solar panels or the like).

It wouldn't matter anyway, because no amount of Vertical Farms could possibly provide enough food if the ENTIRE planet is covered by buildings. That's because the Vertical farm you link to still requires large inputs of clean water, air, soil and energy from outside of the building in order to operate. Where do those inputs that come from? Nature. That Vertical farm is not a self-contained system that can produce food out of magic. People tried to make one of those and it failed miserably, almost killing people from starvation and lack of oygen in the process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

In order to support a present day city of average density, you need many times greater area of natural land surrounding the city in order to provide the ecosystem services necessary for the people in the city to survive. Now Coruscant is a city with buildings apparently hundreds of kilometres tall, covering the ENTIRE planet. There's simply no room on the surface of that planet for enough plants to provide the photovoltaic capacity to capture sunlight and efficiently transform it into the air, soil, food and most importantly the properly balanced atmosphere that the billions of people (and aliens) on Coruscant would need to survive.

Death Stars and faster than light travel are more believable than being able to live on Coruscant. Basically, if the people in the Star Wars universe had the kind of technology and free energy making machines (impossible!) needed to make living on a city planet like Coruscant possible, then they would never fight any wars because they would be able to colonize every planet in the infinite universe so everybody could have their very own planet to live on.

It's just like sound and firey explosions in space - makes for a cool movie, but it's impossible in reality. Wink
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General Veers



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

everything you want to know about coruscant's habitability is right here
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Blacknight



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice try at reconning the problem but notice they don't mention how oxygen is created, or where they get their food. Wink
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vladsimpaler



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As somebody else said, we're dealing with Lucasian physics here.
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Gaia



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blacknight wrote:
The ONLY way the earth is habitable is because of plants (including microbial plants like algae) that capture the sun's energy - without that energy, no life, microbial or otherwise, would be possible. We only have an atmosphere because all the life on planet earth (not just the microbes) works in symbiosis to create it - google Earth System Science or Gaia Theory.

I was only technic: bacteriae that use photosynthesis aren't plants according to biological classifications.

92% of living cells live in underwater and terrestrial undergrounds (66 and 26% respectively), and they're not plants nor animals but procaryotic organisms. And they enter in the vast majority of our atmospheric composition (1999, La Recherche 317, 26-29).

About 7% of living cells live in water (2,2%) and on ground (4,8%), including animal and plant cells (including monocell algae) (same source).

(That's stunning: only 10% of our body cells are human; 90% are bacteriae living in and on our body, even if they count for a very small part of our mass (2005, Le Point des connaissances 1727, 3).)

The concept of forests "green lung of the Earth" is inexact (while this doesn't allow humans to destroy it).
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Blacknight



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, thanks Gaia. Though the Amazon and Boreal forests do absorb a heck of a lot of the world's CO2. Regardless, whether we're talking plants or bacteria, there's apparently no soil or ocean visible to the sun on Coruscant where macro or micro-organisms could inhabit to create any sort of livable atmosphere. There's simply no natural system to support them. What there is on Coruscant are a trillion people who souldn't be able to breathe making a heck of a lot of biological and chemical pollution that has to go somewhere.
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Kha-Zombie
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vladsimpaler wrote:
dWhisper wrote:
Perhaps, but still. Even having that power on one cannon is a bit extreme. The fact that it can blast an asteroid is rather iffy, since there would have never existed an area where asteroids were so densely packed. And if the shields were so strong, they should have rolled right off. After all, Turbolaser > Asteroid...

Shields are made to deflect lasers, not objects.


There are 2 kinds of shielding, ray and particle, ray for lasers and radiation, particle for solid objects, warheads, asteroids etc.

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